After talking about what terrible sinners we are, I think it only right to give some equal time to what God has provided to help us with it. Besides his grace (which really is the keystone of our salvation), God has provided a way for us to live above sin. In The Salvation Army we call it holiness (sanctification, perfect love, Christian perfection [not Sinless Perfection], a subsequent blessing, fully saved, a clean heart, et al).Before I go any further, I must reiterate that nothing good we do buys us anything toward our salvation. Our good works are basically filthy rags (I got that one from a guy named Paul). But once we see our depravity, we can come to God in repentance and he will freely offer his grace (Paul wrestles with our need to see our depravity in Romans 7). But when we're lifted up out of our sin, it doesn't change what we are- just how God sees us. We become justified (made right) by believing that Jesus' death paid the penalty of our infractions.
But what a terrible God Yahweh would be if he told us to be holy (live without sinning) and didn't provide a way for us to actually reach that lofty goal. And he does command us to be holy repeatedly throughout scripture (Leviticus 11:44, 45; 19:2; 20:7, 26; 1 Corinthians 1:2; Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15, 16- not an exhaustive list).
However, in our discussion of holiness we are often confused with the untenable doctrine of "Sinless Perfection." Sinless Perfection is "Such a state as that of Adam before his fall, wherein, he being a perfect creature, was enabled to render a perfect obedience to the perfect law of God" (William Booth). We cannot reach that state because "An imperfect creature cannot perfectly obey a perfect law, and man, being imperfect both in body and in mind, is plainly unable to keep the perfect law of God" (Booth). We will always have a natural tendency to focus on ourselves, which is the core of the sin nature. In other words, we will never get back to that perfection and purity of nature until we reach heaven ("Finally Saved," again Booth).
Holiness also does not make it impossible to fall from grace: "Satan fell from heaven, and Adam from Paradise, and they both were perfect, in a sense in which we never can be in this life; and we do not see any state of grace revealed in the Bible as attainable in this life from which it is not possible to fall" (Booth).
What holiness does (as mentioned in my response to my previous blog) is attune us so closely with Holy Spirit, it becomes unlikely that we will sin- as long as we are in that constant communion with the him. In other words, if we are about to do something we shouldn't (or not do something we should- the sin of omission), Holy Spirit nudges us "back to our senses" (as it were) and we avoid that particular sin. Sin is an offense against God; something that hurts him. Therefore our close connection with Holy Spirit keeps us attuned so we know beforehand, what God wants or doesn't want from us. In that way, we can live without sinning on a regular basis- ie: be holy.
Again, I remind you, we MAY still sin, but we don't HAVE to. Holiness does not cause us to attain some kind of "higher" or better state of grace.
I remember a story told by Samuel Logan Brengle about a time in his life where he went 14 years without sinning. Then one day, he was heading to (I think it was) Old Orchard Beach to preach at a meeting and was running a bit late. His cab driver was being a bit poky and Brengle yelled at him for this. As he left the cab, he was smitten by the Spirit (in order to bring repentance), immediately repented and after the service, tried to find the driver to apologize (I'm not sure if he ever found him).
My point is, even after 14 years of living so close to God that you avoid sin (I believe it is possible), there is still that "something" in us that pulls at us. If we are ever less watchful; if we ever let our guard down, we will most likely sin. That's why we must stay ever so close to God's Holy Spirit.
In that closeness, we don't have to sin. We don't have to let sin get over on us like it used to, controlling us and causing us to "not do what we want to do, but what we don't want to do" (Romans 7).
I am grateful to God for providing his grace not only for our salvation, but also for our holiness. Salvation is all about his grace. Good thing, because there's nothing good in me without him.
Can You Hear Me?
25 comments:
Good word, Doug. We praise God for your faithfulness in Him.
Jim
i love the line where you said ". . .when we're lifted up out of our sin, it doesn't change who we are - just how God sees us. . . "
Hello Doug,
Aurora's cousin here. It's a shame I didn't meet you when I was in Bangor. I find your page fascinating and full of intriguing contradictions. I believe god is in the best if contradictions. :)
I'd like to just post some food for thought...
"As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties. If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering, this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles. Indeed, with this attitude, each new obstacle can be seen as yet another valuable opportunity to improve our mind!
Thus we can strive gradually to become more compassionate, that is we can develop both genuine sympathy for others' suffering and the will to help remove their pain. As a result, our own serenity and inner strength will increase. "
I'll tell you who wrote this if you would be so kind as to relay your thoughts on this passage.
Cheers!
Laura
..2850.4 people dead - most of them in hell? Are you sure?
Doug
You quote Booth out of context and that isn't fair to him or your argument :-)
You have also not mentioned entire sanctification?
If I give everything I have to God - every minute, every second, every influence - how can I sin? The only way I can sin is to take something back. If through grace and obdeince I leave everything there sin is as impossible for me as righteousness was when I had a 'carnal mind'
As long as I, through grace fuelled faithful obedience, maintain my 'living sacrifice' I will not sin (sin being deliberate disobedience of a known law of God.)
I do not accept that it is death which makes me perfect or pure. I am made and kept 'perfect' by God this side of death.
The only imperfect thing about me this side of death is the potential I have to fall. However, if I continue to believe and obey I will not fall - 'having done all things I will stand'. I will be 'more than conqueror'.
I can never be perfect in the sense that I can escape temptation and subsequently the possibility of capitulation but I can remain obedient and sinless if I remain wholly sanctified.
Love and prayers
A
You are coming across as angry, what is the frustration? Feel free to disagree.
Eleanor n/TSSF Penzance
I'm sure you realize that the Greek word hamartia (ἁμαρτία) which is usually translated as sin in the New Testament, means "to miss the mark." Therefore sin is not a state, but an action.
Likewise, "whole" and "perfect" meant more or less the same thing. What is not meant by the word perfection is 'flawless' for it is rather an account of all aspects of ones self taken from a holistic point of view - physical, spiritual, temporal, transcendent etc...
Our good works are basically filthy rags? (Ahh, you're a Calvinist at heart but must not the true meaning of this be taken from poor Isaiah... not St. Paul) I thought Paul said "...so that you may lead lives worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God. (Col 1:10), what about Matt. 10:42, Eph. 2:10 - but even in quoting these I know I am doing the scriptures a disservice by plucking them from their context! But the reason I do is because it begs the question how can righteous acts be "filthy" on one hand, yet essential?
I also wonder about the very quote that Kathryn seemed to enjoy, for I find it rather disheartening and discouraging...
". . .when we're lifted up out of our sin, it doesn't change who we are - just how God sees us. . . "
Is God so blinded by what we "do" that he can no longer see who we are? or rather is it how others see us, or perhaps how we see ourselves? Doesn't God reach down to us so that we can reach up to God? We are able to reach up to God precisely as we are, not changing our circumstances, not seeking to become divine, but exactly as we are; in our current nature, in our current state.
All these questions/statements/ponderings and I only got to your second paragraph... this was a truly exhausting post to read because every step of the way our theologies differ...
Skipping onto your second last paragraph for my last thought (that I'd like to discuss!), you say that you believe that avoiding sin for 14 years is possible - yes, it probably is - but just like all of the fantastic Saint stories - I bet there is a kernal of truth within the wild story - but that is not the point - the message is held within the clay jar of the story (as it were). The message is much more than the physical tangible outer shell of the jar (ie: the 14 years), but the intangible myth that is contained within the jar until it is opened and set free (like the pursuit of living a life well pleasing to the Lord filled with love and compassion). Is it possible not to sin, is it possible not to miss the mark? Probably - but how many lives would you have changed, affected and effected? Or would it be in the pursuit of how you will live in the afterlife? Perhaps it should be about how to live life now, in the present, bringing about the Kingdom of God right here and right now, through every kind word and every action that strives to see the face of Christ in all we meet.
Laura, Yeah, I believe in a literal hell. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. But it wasn't made for humankind- rather for Lucifer and his demons who spurned God's love. We only go there because we choose to follow Lucifer there and not follow Jesus to heaven (a very simplified version).
Andrew, I'm not sure how I'm quoting Booth out of context- my quotes are from a question and answer booklet- not much context to follow.
However, much of what you say is what I am saying. Thanks for the support! We must "keep in touch" with Holy Spirit; "stay obedient" (which is making the right choices each time). Then we remain pure- it's God's grace, not because I'm good. We can remain holy if we stay close to Holy Spirit. That's him doing the work in us.
Entire sanctification IS sanctification; holiness; the blessing of a clean heart, et al. Just different words for the same concept.
Your last paragraph is right on the mark!
Eleanor, Are you saying I'm angry or Andrew? Just to be sure- I'm not intending to sound angry . . . (It's too easy to read words in a different tone than they were written). I didn't take Andrew as angry either.
Kirsten, Calvinist? You call this ever-lovin' Wesleyan-Arminian a Calvinist? I am deeply wounded (heh)! {insert dramatic dead throws here}
While I believe Calvin had a lot of good things to say we can learn from, especially about God's sovereignty, he certainly "missed the mark" (double heh!) on "Whosoever Will!"
"God is blinded by what we do?" I don't think so. He wants us to do good things; we were created to do good works. We just need to know we do them by his grace in us and not by our own goodness.
You believe Brengle's testimony of 14 years of holiness is a myth (wild story)? You don't believe it's possible to live without sinning? Just to be sure here- I do believe it. I have experienced such times (sadly nowhere near 14 years)! It is absolutely possible. Hopefully our discussion here is not about whether we believe in it or not- just what it means as we walk it out daily.
Hey Doug
Hope you are well
Hi Doug
You quote Booth in relation to Adamic perfection...
"We cannot reach that state because "An imperfect creature cannot perfectly obey a perfect law, and man, being imperfect both in body and in mind, is plainly unable to keep the perfect law of God"
Booth is talking about moral goodness - just as Jesus was when he said 'no one is good but God'.
If you're asking me if I or any other human can be morally good then the answer is categorically no - if that were so then the law would have done its job without any help from Jesus.
But... I do not have "a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
What does righteous mean? It means more than justified or forgiven it means good.
Someone who is forgiven and washed in the blood of the lamb is 'good' and as long as they (through faith) remain obedient then they are 'perfect' in every way apart from their vulnerability to temptation, but if they remain faithful then even that cannot separate from the righteousness they enjoy in Christ.
I think we do largely agree but the difference is more than semantic.
Love and prayers
A
Check out: http://old-wells.blogspot.com/ for a good definition of holiness :-)
A
You misunderstood my question there. Sorry if I was vague. Of course you believe in hell...it would be rather ignorant of me to ask such a question seeing Aurora shares the same beliefs as you do ;)
No, my question was not about the existence of hell but rather of the pronounced belief that the majority of the people that die every second, are sent there.
Besides, what I really asked, you didn’t answer (sniff...tear...just kidding).
I'll tell you anyhow...save you from the suspense. It was actually the Dalai Lama. Awesome eh? (Yes...I'm Canadian...I can't help it)
I'll tell you why I think it's fantastic.
"As long as we live in this world we are bound to encounter problems. [true] If, at such times, we lose hope and become discouraged, we diminish our ability to face difficulties.[ie, hopelessness, as seen as a sin, is like putting blinders on between us and god, thus making it hard to 'face difficulties' - I'm merely looking at our point of view of the situations, not gods' displeasure...] If, on the other hand, we remember that it is not just ourselves but everyone who has to undergo suffering,[like a Global view for the need for faith in god...] this more realistic perspective will increase our determination and capacity to overcome troubles.[without focusing so much on ourselves, we go out and do things for others, like what the war collage does and what the army does every day. God is in our actions, thus when doing good work we are closer to god.] Indeed, with this attitude, each new obstacle can be seen as yet another valuable opportunity to improve our mind! [Strengthen our faith]
Thus we can strive gradually to become more compassionate, that is we can develop both genuine sympathy for others' suffering and the will to help remove their pain. As a result, our own serenity and inner strength will increase." [I think the last part is pretty self explanatory...and exquisitely universal]
Now, I really wanted to hear your original thoughts of the passage, without knowing who it came from or without knowing my thoughts/interpretation. Can you still do that?
I'll wait on tenterhooks till then.
Cheers!
Laura
Someday i will have big thoughts like douglas burr and get 12 comments about it!!! whoa popularity? giftedness in writeing? extra holyness? somethin! and i want some of whatever it is! hahaha!
"God is blinded by what we do?" ahh... i'm disappointed - you missed my Pauline rhetoric (and my giant list of rhetorical questions!) (pouts)
hmm... Myth doesn't = wild story! Myth is the perfect vehicle to transmit truths that cannot be shaped by words alone... so is Brengle's testimony a Myth (capital M) I don't know - but I placed him in amazing company of the myths of the Saints (St. Columba, St. Patrick... heck we're almost in Advent - St. Nicholas!). Yes, perhaps it is possible to not sin for that lenght of time - but did they go about it in a manner that they also did good things - lived an amazing life (well pleasing to the Lord...) or did they hide out under a rock (or out in the desert like the Abba's and Amma's?) I hope our converstaion is more than mental gymnastics - for if we don't live it out - what's the point?
wow. . this is all so dizzying. . .
ahh, welcome to the thoughts of my family! Much love to everyone commenting...I'm still wrapping my head around some of it!
Laura, thanks for your thoughts on the quote...I see now you intended it more as a sharing of something that speaks to you, and not necessarily as a literal attack, which is how I first read it.
You say, "But when we're lifted up out of our sin, it doesn't change what we are- just how God sees us."
God says "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" 2 Corinthians 5:17
The reference to filthy rags comes from Isa 64:6. I think that the term righteous in this context is being used to describe self-righteous activities like Paul's list of activities in Phil 3. He could have said somthing like "I did all these righteous things but they were worth nothing because I still missed the mark that God had set for me. We're commanded to be righteous even before we are saved and when we can come to realize our hopelessness to acomplish that on our own we can turn to God and be given a new life and his Spirit that changes everything about who we are and what we are capable of.
I think that some of the arguement here might be a bit of a problem with words. I'm not a good person in that there is nothing good about me besides what God has imparted on me. I think that I am a good person in that God has recreated me into a child of his.
I think that the new creation can still sin but if it is not moving towards Christ-likeness(holiness) then I seriously doubt that there was any real conversion. Christians either need to be completely holy or working towards it or they are in rebellion. I think that the rebirth creates people that crave holiness (see Rom 8:1-17). While I'm not sure that we can every really be without sin I think that we MUST always been pushing on towards the goal of holiness in order to win the prize for which we were called. We can not ever say "Ok, now I'm saved I can relax because I'm going to heaven." This does not demonstrate the love of God. If we love him we will seek him and his righteousness. If we love him passionately we will passionately seek his him and his righteousness. There is no room for complacency within Christianity. I think that some people may think that that is what you are implying and hence a bit of the agitation.
I hope that I haven't rambled on too much or misunderstood something and so took this conversation on a weird tangent. Some of the threads were a bit difficult to follow.
Rose
So... My testimony is; That through the sacrifice of Jesus and freedom from captivity I now do not live under any obligation to sin. (ala Paul)
Is sin still a living enemy? yes. Is sin a possibility? yes.
Am I dead to temptation? no.
I am still at war.
But sin's authourity has ended.
I am under no obligation to sin.
As SLB said, "no enemies within, only enemies without". (He also said that the temptations of the santified man are far worse so in a way our perceived opportunity to sin is increased post sanctification!!!)
If i was to testify to the defining sensation of santification it would be that; that sin and it's temptation somehow became external. And to sin is a far more clearly defined 1. choice and 2. action than it was before deliverance.
Woah...hold on a sec. I'm sorry Doug (and Aurora) if my first post came off as offensive! That wasn't at all my intent! And I guess that's why, Doug, you sort of brushed me off.
Like you were saying to Andrew in another one of your comments about being careful with your words...I hope my post doesn't "kill any further repartee".
Cheers!
Laura
No worries, Laura! I get you!
And Kristen, the thing about Brengle not sinning, you might want to check out
http://www.raptureready.com/resource/brengle/heart02.html
It's Brengle's thoughts on holiness.
I like Rowan's testimony.
And Rose's thought that rebirth causes people to 'crave holiness'. Good one! That's bang on.~
I believe that holiness depends upon continued obedience to God.
Not some kind of Christian perfection that we hide under a rock once we've attained that state so that we might never lose it, but simply an adventure in learning who God is, and who we are called to be in Him.
Can I add a little visualization that helps me?
It's like that scene from the movie the Labrynth, when the girl is going through this dizzying adventure and finding everything changing, and it seems there is no way to escape all the twists and turns and illogical consequences until this pivitol moment, when she is standing face to face with the Goblin king (David Bowie)and realizes "You have no power over me!"
This is my picture of awakening to holiness. Standing face to face with the devil, in the middle of all his lies and delusions, and realizing that in Christ, Satan no longer has any hold on me or my life. I no longer have to play life by his rules which are always changing, but am free to experience God who is perfect in all things.
Sorry if this is just adding to the confusion of the conversation here! I tend to think in movies in my head.
Jesus is a freedom fighter, and I think there is much more freedom personally, when we enter into the fight on another's behalf.
Much love!
Aurora
correction, this is the one where Brengle defines holiness...
http://www.raptureready.com/resource/brengle/helps01.html
Doug, did you know that Brengle had a brick thrown at his head by a drunk guy??....it's amazing the things you learn from Wickepedia!
yeah, yeah, me again.
John Wesley is the guy Booth based his theology on Christian Perfection.
He identifies the difference between 'sinless perfection' (which is impossible) and 'Christian Perfection' (which is possible).
Reading through these posts again, I think we're all saying pretty much the same thing, and like Rose said, the disagreements are more a matter of what choice of language we use than anything else.
Some are now having troubles posting on my blog. Sorry about that. I have NO clue what's up (I haven't supressed responses or anything). This is a test.
Hmm. No problem here.
If you've got something to say, please keep trying. I assume Blogger will fix whatever it is.
BTW, it's kettle season and everything else, so I've been very busy and haven't had a chance to reply. I'm not snubbing anyone!
i know what i vote! talking about food. and how it tastes so good. hmmmmm yea that would be a mighty good blog, im pretty sure food can be good, its purpose to nuroush and keep people from dieing, it does its purpous, sweet!food is good! so sin for food! todays featured food iss ummm a chicken sandwich! hmmmmm lets see what kind of controversery come with that one yo!
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