In an attempt to pull things from my last 2 blog entries into one place, I offer the following to all who are involved in the discussion:In some ways those of us in the thick of this holiness discussion are saying similar things. In other ways we're not at all. Without going point by point through everything I want you all to know that I totally understand what the dissenting views are saying. I also totally understand what TSA teaches on holiness. In fact I have been teaching it for years.
The problem is, even after many years I don't see it in my experience (or others' for that matter). I'm beginning to think we've somehow mixed something up in our understanding of what scripture teaches about holiness. Or are we so entrenched in what our TSA holiness teachers have said that we aren't looking for anything else that fits the pattern of truth? If holiness as we teach it is "right" then why are these beliefs such a small part of the Christian church? Why aren't more Christians living holy without a sin nature? Are we really the "only ones" to get it? The "rest of the church" teaches we need to be filled with the Spirit- sorta what I'm saying, but that's not all of it.
I've experienced the witness of the Spirit telling me I was holy (much like Andrew mentions). But after a time, I find the sin nature (that was supposed to be crucified) alive again and fighting much more insidiously. If the sin nature is supposed to be dead, how does it come back to life again? I've defeated it again and again (what a wretched man!). I know that temptation will always be there until heaven, but it's more than that- it's me. Temptation comes from without; my self comes from within. And that junk I fight against regularly, is from within.
I am totally bummed that people don't understand what holiness is! I have been trying for years to make it simple, but it doesn't seem to change anything. TSA's people are further away from actually living out holiness than ever before. People don't get it so they forget it. You might notice that of all the people who read my blog, very few have responded in my comments because they just don't understand what we're talking about. There are always a few who dig deep and try to understand it all, but if holiness is for everyone (and I believe it is), it should be for everyone and not just those studious ones. It shouldn't be rocket science.
I believe we can live without sinning. I believe that is what holiness is. I experience it, because I stay close to Jesus and listen to his Spirit- not because my sin nature is gone. I wish it was, but I cannot discount my experience based on what I want my theology to be. No matter how much I read that some think it is supposed to be that way.
I suppose some might be seeing this as defeatist, but I can live quite victoriously over sin (and do, often- with the ever-present possibility of never sinning again). God is always there to keep me from sinning even though my nature tends otherwise. I can and do live without sinning, but I see it as because of Jesus' blood and not that my sin nature is gone. In the center of sIn is "I." Same for prIde.
Do you experience a dead sin nature? Is it really gone for good? It's never come back at you again? Any sin is only from outside temptation (which is another can of worms, isn't it)? If the sin nature is gone, then we have been made just like Adam/Eve- that sounds too much like Sinless Perfection and TSA has fought against that as long as we have taught about holiness. We won't be made like Adam/Eve until heaven.
I wish we were all able to just sit down and chat. This blog stuff is very hard to do a long deep conversation effectively. Much like we're "looking though a glass darkly!"
I really want to understand AND experience holiness (I believe I do). But more than that, I want to see my people (and all Christians) experiencing it.
Can You Hear Me?
5 comments:
love the title!!! lol!
a very thoughtful posting, again. I want to be holy. I want to stay close to God. Is my sin nature dead? No. It seems to me like a horror movie in which the evil thing just won't die and keeps popping back up. Infuriating! I don't feel without hope or a solution - for there's Jesus and I know He's already dealt with that. But like i always told my kids: "It's not enough to know, you have to do."
I found a good verse in my reading the other day. . Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There is not a single person in all the earth who is always good and never sins."
i wish we could sit down for a chat too. . but this will have to do!
Doug I really appreciate your sincerity and humility.
We mustn't confuse temptation with 'sin nature'. Take Christ in Gethsemane battling with 'my will'. Jesus had his own plans which did not include Calvary - he had his own will. The battle for the will is temptation. However, Jesus had no desire to sin and that was how he was able to defeat the tempter.
What follows is a bit long! It is the first chapter of a book I am writing on holiness... it deals with the problem of sin and the possibility of righteousness.
I hope it helps...
Chapter One - "Tell me what to do to be pure..."
"Tell me what to do to be pure in the sight of the all-seeing eyes;
Tell me, is there no thorough cure, no escape from the sins I despise?
Tell me can I never be free from this terrible bondage within?
Is there no deliverance for me from the thraldom of indwelling sin?"
Samuel Horatio Hodges
In the verse quoted above, Samuel Horatio Hodges asks the question that all Christians are bound to ask at some stage in their spiritual development – is it possible for me to stop doing wrong and be the kind of Christian that the bible suggests I can be or must I repeatedly return to the cross of Jesus for forgiveness without making any real progress?Unfortunately most Christians turn away from this question with a firm ‘no!’ ringing in their ears. This is a deeply sad state of affairs for Jesus came to earth, died and rose again to do so much more than just make forgiveness possible. Full salvation doesn’t only deal with the consequences of sin it attacks it at its source, it doesn’t just treat the symptoms of sin it administers a complete cure. As Isaiah reminds us we are not simply ‘treated’ by his wounds we are ‘healed’!
The devil believes that giving into temptation is inevitable. He sees humanity as living proof of Oscar Wilde’s sentiment that “I can resist anything but temptation.” The enemy reads the same New Testament that you and I do and he is familiar with all of the victorious and optimistic promises it contains. However, he also knows that the majority of new shoots dry up or are strangled by weeds. As he reviews the work of his troops he is satisfied to see that they have — within most churches — established strongholds of quiet hypocrisy characterised by invisible double standards and visible apathy. His greatest achievement is the commonly held belief among many Christians that ‘to err’ is human and apart from the regular application of divine forgiveness nothing can be done about it.
The forces of evil are as active within the church today as they have ever been. The evidence of their presence is all around us, but the clearest proof of their current success is the limited number of "good" Christians within the modern church. This should be of great concern to us for however we dress it up Christianity is all about being good. It's not about doing good works but it is about being good. The church, in its understandable desire to emphasise the love and generosity of God, has forgotten that unrighteous people — that is people who deliberately and consistently rebel against God — cannot inherit God’s kingdom.
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
(1 Corinthians 6:8-10)
The key to life and happiness — both on earth — and eternally is the establishment of righteousness (goodness) in our lives and the total defeat and eradication of all that is bad.
“Whoever would love and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.” (1 Peter 3:10-12)
The apostle John, probably better than anyone else, states the truth that goodness and obedience is something God looks for in the life of believers. Indeed in his first letter to the early church John stresses that being good is the hallmark of true Christianity.
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:7-10)
Over the years John’s first letter has been the subject of much debate, yet the truth behind the apostle’s words is explicit. Two thousand years of theology has struggled to interpret these verses simply because they appear to be contradicted by the history of human failure. As a result of this people have argued that John couldn't have meant what he actually said. This is because we are sometimes tempted to measure biblical truth by our shared human experience rather than by God's power and his standards. According to John it is our behaviour good or bad which identifies our spiritual character. John puts it as simply as he can; a person who consistently does what is right is of God whereas someone who consistently does what is wrong is of the devil
Earlier in the same letter in chapter 2:3-6 John says:
“We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.”
Note that both Paul and John share a concern that the church should not be ‘deceived’ or ‘led astray’ over this vital issue. Yet that is exactly what has happened, the contemporary church has become blinded to both the importance of being good and the possibility of being good. It should come as no great surprise that the devil has blinkered the eyes of many Christians for here in these few verses stands the greatest potential threat to his hold over humanity. Look at the last passage again, what is John actually saying? He is answering Samuel Hodges question (quoted above) in crystal clear terms. John is saying that a person who repeatedly gives into temptation is not a Christian whereas someone who consistently ‘obeys God’s word’ is. Indeed John goes further and actually calls those who repeatedly disobey whilst claiming to be followers of Jesus ‘liars’. To our modern ears such an interpretation of the apostle’s words might seem a little harsh but that is exactly what he is saying! Forget all that you have been taught; forget the memory of past failure and concentrate on the biblical truth “Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.”
Of course John recognises the probability of failure and understandably makes allowances for it when he writes,
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defence - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (1 John 2:1 -6)
Yet although John provides comfort and hope to those who fail, the overall aim of his teaching remains absolutely clear — one of the Christians most basic and achievable goals should be freedom from habitual sin. John's sees the church as a body of believers who’s Christianity should be identified by victorious living and not by repeated failure. If John had a copy of Paul's letter to the Romans it would be safe to assume that the following verses would have been heavily underscored,
“Count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." (Romans 6:11-14)
The idea that Christianity possesses the key to victory over temptation is well established throughout the New Testament. When Jesus promised his disciples the Holy Spirit in John chapter fourteen the emphasis was on his role as a teacher but in the preceding verses Jesus stresses the importance of obedience. In fact he describes obedience as the evidence of love and one of the conditions which had to be met in order for the Spirit to come into the believer’s heart in the first place. The Holy Spirit was sent to enable the disciples to carry on with the establishment of God’s kingdom even without the physical presence of Jesus to encourage them. Look at the narrative in John 14: 23 - 26
“Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
When contemporary Christians consider the role of the Holy Spirit the emphasis is often based on what he can do for us rather than on what he can do through us. In today's climate, where all too often the Holy Spirit is seen as nothing more than a "blessing factory", the connection between the ministry of the Holy Spirit and personal purity is often missed. Of course the Holy Spirit is about blessing - of that there is no doubt - but his main function is to educate and to empower.
Whilst the most intensely passionate moments of the Christian life may well be spent relaxing in the embrace of the “comforter” the purpose of such intimacy goes much further than just our own happiness. Love remains the most powerful motive that God has at his disposal and it is not given to us so that we might indulge ourselves in isolation from the lost. Christ’s love is always given to us to encourage obedience, in fact if we fail to obey – or at least fail to sense within ourselves the desire to obey – then it never was his love we experienced in the first place.
What is the difference between empty, emotional, sentimental, happy-clappy, hand waving worship and passionate, intense, happy-clappy, hand waving worship? If our Christian faith and practice drives us to evangelical inactivity and makes us insular then it’s of the devil, if it drives us out into the darkness in search of the lost then it’s of God! If it does nothing to increase our righteousness and leaves us weak and helpless it’s of the devil.If it drives us away from weakness and failure into the arms of victory and strength it’s of God. What was it Jesus said when he sent out the disciples
“As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7
John says “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin” and Paul says that “sin shall not be our master” but for many Christians sin remains in control. Many people struggle, like the character Paul describes in chapter 7 of Romans and all too often say with him,
"I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do - this I keep on doing... When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" (Romans 7:18-24)
Why does Paul labour this poor man's lot with such intensity? Because the apostle knows that he is describing the condition of his readers; he knows it will strike a familiar chord in their hearts. Paul knows that the desire to ‘be good’ is common to all Christians. He knows that salvation creates within Christians a desire to be holy but he also knows that for most of us becoming holy is a struggle. Paul isn't writing to the Romans to offer them sympathy. He doesn't answer the question with the reply "Unfortunately no one can rescue me." He says, "Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Paul knows and wants the Romans to know that Christianity is not about being slaves it's about being free. Five times in the preceding chapter Paul tells the Romans that they do not have to be slaves to sin.
If this is true why is it that so many Christians are under the authority of habitual sin? Where is the freedom that Christ and his apostles talked about? It would be bad enough if we had merely forgotten how to be good, but sadly, by accepting the reality of our experience over the reality of God’s truth, we've actually convinced ourselves that goodness is impossible. The distance between thinking that goodness is impossible and believing it to be unnecessary is dangerously short. If we can’t be good then how can goodness be a requirement? Would God demand the impossible from his children? Eventually we become accustomed to a life of moral compromise punctuated by periods of confession and forgiveness where repentance is watered down into nothing more than just another word for sorry.
Yet the truth is that God gives those who seriously seek him a definite ‘hunger and thirst after righteousness’ because he longs more than anything else to satisfy those desires. God wants good Christians, habitual sin at best gets in the way and makes us ineffective and at worst it threatens our eternal security. Bad Christians cannot produce good fruit and pretending to be something that we plainly are not is a highly dangerous game.
This book, like Christianity, is about being good. It's been written for people who are so hungry for righteousness that it hurts; people who desperately want to believe in the possibility of being good and want to experience that goodness in their own lives. This book is written for those who want to obey the command of their master to "Go on their way and sin no more." Too many of us, like the woman who first heard those words, find ourselves repeatedly exposed and condemned by obvious and uncontrollable failure. For too long the devil has been dragging Christians by the scruff of the neck and throwing them at the feet of Christ telling him that he caught us “in the very act”. This book, hopefully, will allow Christ to send us on our way with the knowledge and power that will enable us to “sin no more”. This is not a “self help’ book, its title is not “How to stop sinning in three easy steps” or “Teach yourself holiness”. It starts where the adulterous woman had to start - it starts with the truth. It starts with two firm yet contradictory beliefs; the first is that man seems to have an almost natural inability to be good and the second is God’s absolute promise that he can be!
Yours set apart
A
I'm not mistaking temptation for the sin nature. In fact, I thought I've been very clear about temptation "from the outside" and sin nature "from the inside." I also talked about temptation as another whole can of worms.
Like Jesus, I "have no desire to sin" (as you mention). Unlike Jesus, I find myself with Paul (at times), doing just what I don't want to do. His whole meaning in this passage is that even though we don't want to sin, we do anyway (it is not me doing it, but sin in me).
You seem to think I believe sin is inevitable; we have no choice; we will sin no matter what. That is NOT what I am saying at all. You are completley missing my point. I am saying the very opposite, we CAN live without sinning- regularly. We don't have to sin, but that victory comes because of the continuing state of salvation I live in and the constant commmunion with God's Spirit within.
Our sin nature is not "eradicated" (your word, and a dangerous one at that), it is triumphed over continually (continuance in a state of salvation...).
Of course, we should do what is right. Of course we should stop sinning. We have no argument there. Sin is NOT a good thing and I am certainly NOT advocating we even mildly get involved with it. For you to imply I am saying anything like this is way off.
Here is the issue I am trying to make clear (as mud now) in my posts: Holiness IS possible. We CAN live without sinning as God commands. It comes through listening, obedience and faith.
Here is where we differ: You are saying the sin nature is GONE, I am saying it is defeated continually.
We must be careful when we "toss out" experience from our theology. Wesley taught very clearly a "quadrilateral" which included experience. If we do not experience our theology, what good is it? If it doesn't work, why would we continue to believe something- anything?
I experience holiness. I can and do live without sinning. I must admit though, that I first experienced sanctification over 25 years ago, but I cannot say I have remained sinless for all those years. Could I rightfully say that any time I sinned was ONLY because of temptation from without? I cannot- and remain truthful.
Do I "habitually" sin (words you use)? Am I constanly being defeated by sin? NO! I have the victory over it; it is under my feet through Jesus' blood.
Andrew, please be careful about how you talk in conversations with people such as this. I could easily take offense at your comments such as: "are blinded by the devil" and the like. I could as easily throw those words around too, but I don't believe you are blinded by the devil. I believe we are both working out our salvation as we are required to do. I would never throw your beliefs out without hearing them and giving you the benefit of the doubt.
One thing I have learned in my life: NO ONE has it all right. NO person. NO church. We are ALL in process and working out what we believe by what we Experience, what we know from the Tradition of The historical Christian Church, what we Reason out, and most importantly- what we find in God's Word (there's that quadrilateral again!).
I think this discussion is finished. We are not getting anywhere and I fear we are just making things harder for people to understand- the opposite of what this blog is meant to be.
Sadly, I sign off of the topic of holiness. Maybe another day?
Doug
I'm really sorry - it was not my intention to offend. The posting was not directed at you nor as a direct reply to your comments it was simply the first chapter of a book I'm writing and I included it to help anyone who reads your blog and is seeking holiness not as a specific response to your comments.
The chapter was written long before your blog debate began and is posted FYI (for anyone who comes this way) not as response.
Sorry....
love and prayers Andrew
Can I just remind people about holiness4salvationists e group? If you email either Andrew or myself we have the address, or you can google.
It is easier than writing via blog comments.
I'm avoiding getting drawn in not because I don't have my own position on this but because as a spiritual director I am more concerned with how we grow in becoming holy in an everyday way, after the crisis experience, than the theological analysis of what is sin and what is not, etc.
Warmest blessings, Eleanor n/TSSF
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