Yes or no? Are you a good person? I bet you think you are, right? Now that you've decided, read on:
Most people today (especially Christians) believe they are good people. What a relief, huh? If you look around you at any time, you'll find you're surrounded by people who think they're good. Doesn't that make you feel . . . well, good?But what does the Bible have to say about that?
There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10
All have sinned and fall (present tense) short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
All have sinned and fall (present tense) short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
What does Jesus say?
No one is good- except God alone. Matthew 10:18
What does Paul say?
I am the worst of sinners. 1 Timothy 1:15
So why do we think we're good? 1) Because we don't want our conscience to bother us. 2) It comes from a poor understanding of our salvation. 3) We think doing good things makes us good people. {bzzz! Wrong answer! Thanks for playing!}
You see, it's all about Good People versus Good Things. This is important today because hell will be FULL of people who think they are good. Heaven will be FULL of sinners saved ONLY by grace. Where will YOU be?
1) We think we’re good because we don’t want our conscience to bother us. But that’s why we HAVE a conscience! It’s SUPPOSED to bother us when we sin!
Romans 7:7-13 tells us that the Law shows us what sin is. When we sin, our conscience goes off like an alarm! Then we feel bad. "Like an alarm" nothing, our conscience IS an alarm! When it goes off, we’re supposed to repent, so God can release his grace to save us from that sin.
BUT we’ve convinced ourselves we're good people and ignore our conscience. We never think we sin, so we never have to feel bad! Great trick, huh? But then we never repent and never received God’s grace. We head straight to hell all the while thinking were good people!
When was the last time you went to the Army altar? We salvationists believe the altar is one of our most precious symbols of grace- but some are too proud to "lower" themselves. That’s eternally sad.
Listen! If you think you’re a good person, you're fooling yourself and your conscience will never do what it’s supposed to do- show you what a wretch you are.
Oh, have I offended you? Those aren't my words, but the words of a familiar hymn: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me."
2) We think we’re good because of a poor understanding of our salvation. Fact: All humankind is Totally Depraved.
In the beginning God created two perfect human beings: Adam and Eve. They were pure and sinless, but they chose to sin. Ever since then, every single human is born a sinner (Except Jesus- and he’s the only exception). That means me. That means YOU! Disagree?
Answer truthfully: Do you gossip? That’s sin. Do you worry? That’s sin. Lie? Sin. Speed? Sin. Say mean things? Sin. Grumble and complain? Yep- sin. Get angry? Sin again. You think you’re better than others? Hate people? Sin. Are you jealous of anyone? Sin. Are you Selfish? Sin. I can go on here . . .
Salvation Army Doctrine #5 agrees that we are totally depraved. Sin is not just murder or BIG crimes. All sin is sin. Even "little" sins. God hates it; we do it. We ALL do it. We are NOT good. You know it. If you think different, you’re ignoring your conscience.
But Doug, I do all kinds of good things every day!
3) Doing good things does NOT make us good. Scripture says we were created to do good things (works), but it also says that we are not saved by our works.
Think Lucifer ever did any good things? You bet he did! You think he’s a good person? What about Judas? Hitler? Fidel Castro? Idi Amin? Doug Burr? If I collect all the good things I've ever done and stack them all in a big pile, I end up with a big pile of good stuff. I’m still a sinner and no closer to heaven. Same for you.
Paul saw the truth: he realized he was not a good person, rather the worst. Without this realization, we don’t think we need God and we never repent. You know what? ONLY God’s grace can save us.
What's my point? You are not a good person. Neither am I. No one is. When you think you are, you lift yourself above the need for repentance. That will send you to hell.
I’m writing to people who sin regularly; religiously even, yet how often do you go to your Army altar to deal with that? You have any idea how that breaks God's heart? We hold the altar as a special place where we can repent and receive God’s grace. We’re all going to need it. It’s the only way we reach heaven. In fact, it's ONLY by Grace we can enter.
Still think you're a good person? So what are you going to do about it?
17 comments:
i know i'm no good. . i can't stay good for 1 hour. I know i'm not cut out for 'good' and i know this is why i need God's forgiveness, Jesus' blood and mercy and love. Still, every day is a challenge, every hour, every minute. I have no altar to go to but the altar in my heart. . God meets me there.
Josh- Ooo, interesting thought! Doing versus being. Hmm.
K- Don't take me wrong- the altar isn't the "only" place of grace and this Army has no corner on the market. The altar is just a special one in TSA that is too often neglected because we think we're so good. But we're not alone- everyone struggles with self and our desire to be seen as good people.
Doug- I humbly beg to differ...
Your verses about no one being good refer to those outside of holiness. That is a truth by definition- not revelation.
Your verses about conscience deal with either a sinner or a pre-sanctified saint (I'm making room for different interpretations here). They refer to someone who is not sanctified. Again, this is truth by definition- not revelation.
Your argument from total depravity describes us pre-conversion.
General Catherine Booth explains that Jesus came to save us from our sins, not in them. That is, goodness/righteousness/holiness is not MERELY imputed but also imparted.
The whole point of the New Testament epistles is two-fold: 1. to warn us not to backslide; 2. to help us get sanctified so we don't backslide. In the terms of this blog, the whole pont is to make us good.
To argue that we are not and cannot be good is to make God out to be a mean-spirited being who commands from us the impossible and then punishes us for our failure to obey.
Our God is not mean-spirited. He is benevolent. Thus, recognizing, just as an example, all of the verses concerning our privilege and responsibility to be holy, we are to be and can be good.
Much grace,
StephenC
Ah- I was hoping I'd get some reference to holiness in a response! I'm actually working on my next blog entry about holiness, which mentions some of the things you do. Nice pick up.
However, I still believe we're not good; it's not any goodness we exhibit that saves us- we still need and always will need a savior who IS good. Without his constant input, we will always revert to our previous state.
Holiness is a state of living without sinning. That happens when we get so close to Holy Spirit that we know his "mind" and avoid sin before we do it- eg he will guide us and "elbow" us when we are about to sin, so we don't. But the tendency will always be there until we are "finally saved," as William Booth put it. That's when all the old sin nature will be entirely removed for good.
i totally agree that without God's 'constant input' we will revert back to our old state.
Ouch, Doug. I'm guessing you didn't mean to but you just attributed to death power you refuse to acknowledge in Holy Spirit- the power to fully sanctify, to neutralize or do away with or render powerless (three versions of Romans 6:6) our sinful nature (our natural inclination to act selfishly).
Holiness is much, much more than just regulating, rehabilitating, or starving our passions. It is more than getting power to say no to something we're dying to do. It is death to the old man (I blogged this week that 'you cannot perfect the old man') and filling of Holy Spirit.
Surely Holy Spirit is more powerful than death. Otherwise Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:6, and every holiness testimony in history is bunk.
- to summarize, that is two strikes:
1. in dissing God (the Father) in the first post;
2. in dissing Holy Spirit in this last comment.
Don't strike out on Jesus! :-)
Grace,
sec
wow. . this is turning into quite a thing.
So Steve are you saying that once we are sancitied, there is no possibility of ever sinning again? TSA doesn't teach that. If our sin nature is eradicated, does it somehow come back to life (because experience shows there is still the possibility of sin)? That seems to make sin pretty powerful!
Even Brengle after 14 years of holy living and not sinning, speaks of falling and having to "start again." Does that vacate his holiness testimony?
We aren't done with our sin nature until we are done with this life. William Booth spoke of being First Saved, Fully Saved and Finally Saved. The Final part is when we are forever done with sin. There would be no need for the Final Saved step if it was already done in the Fully Saved step. We can beat the sin nature every time, but we can't get back to the perfection of nature that Adam and Eve had- until heaven. You imply that once we are sanctified, we have defeated sin in our lives for good.
1 John 1:7-2:2
if we are living in the light of God's presence, just as Christ is, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from every sin (he is speaking to those who are 'in the light,' not the pre-saved).
8 If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.
2:1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin (holiness). But if you do sin (possibility), there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely (not us). 2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
BTW, I think there's some room for discussion here and I'm grateful for it. Holiness is confusing enough for most people, so good spirited discussion should always help. But please don't say I'm "dissing God" with my thoughts. Those are pretty strong words (even with a smiley)and they could have a tendency to kill any further repartee.
yes, i find holiness difficult to sort out. . and live out. I do know that when i asked God to sanctify me, i have never felt more spiritual opposition - the enemy came at me full force. . gotta admit, i got knocked down. I was also hugely affected when i read "The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee. . a lot of intense teaching about holiness, the human 'trinity' spirit, soul and body - their roles, their tendencies, their 'proper order'. . i found it a very tough read. . i often felt discouraged and like nothing i'd ever said or done or prayed or thought was of any use. .like i'd never gotten anything right and i just wanted to chuck it all . . but i finished the book and its taken me a while to digest it and have all of that information settle within my heart. . I even had to stop reading it at one point -- i was so put off. . but i had to finish. It was stern and like spiritual Buckley's cough syrup. . "tastes awful but it works"?! Now that its gotten into my system, I do feel like I benefitted from the medicine.
Doug: Thanks for your response. It seems like we're speaking different languages here and it is frustrating.
I'll respond to yours, point by point:
1. Yes, sanctified soul can sin. Adam and Eve sinned a first time. John Fletcher lost his sanctification five times before latching on for good.
2. SLB's testimony, as you describe it, is of 14 years of holiness (I believe he later goes to 50).
3. I can't recall context of WB's three Fs but we definitely disagree with our interpretation of that. I'm guessing they are loosely synonymous with justification, sanctification, and glorification. If so, how do we related differently with sin at glorification from sanctification? Well, I'll guess that of the three battlegrounds, the last two (devil and world) are removed (sinful nature is already done away with in sanctified soul, so there is no difference there).
As you've described holiness in these posts and the main blog is has nearly nothing, beyond naming Brengle and Booth, to do with primitive (i.e. pre-Coutts) Salvation Army holiness doctrine.
4. I'm not saying that you are intentionally dissing God, just that your arguments implicitly do.
:-)
5. What seems to be missing is recognition that God commands us to BE holy and to BE perfect (to allude to the earlier comments) not merely to DO good. Holiness is way more than sucking it up and regulating our habits and passions. We are made good. The money quote on this from a SA theology perspective is again from General Catherine Booth: "There is a notion aborad of a sort of make-believe religion as though God would count us righteous and deal with us as if we were righteous while He leaves us in our unrighteousness." The holiness you are describing in these comments and your blog is the notion that she is attacking in her quote.
Much grace,
stephenC
Steve,
You say "John Fletcher lost his sanctification five times before latching on for good." How could this be, if his sin nature was dead? Did it rise again by itself? Did he "allow" it to be reborn in his soul (giving either the sin nature or the man quite a bit of power as compared to God)? Either you have a tendency to sin or not. You can't have it, kill it and then have it again. And again. And again.
You also say "[the] sinful nature is already done away with in [the] sanctified soul." "Done away with" sounds permanent. After 14 years of holiness for Brengle, it seems to have reared its ugly head again. How can something dead still have such sway on our souls?
As far as being "Primitive Sally Politically Correct" (my term! heh, heh) in my holiness doctrine, I'm not so concerned about that (although to be fair, it does play a big role in my understanding- it's just not "Gospel"). I am concerned with what experience tells us: Brengle sinned after 14 years of holiness; Fletcher sinned 5x before it "stuck." They are not the only ones to fit my "hypothesis." I think everyone can identify.
We can do the right thing every time if we make the right choice every time (with Holy Spirit guiding). But we must make that choice each time; we are not exempt because we have been moved back to a state of Adamic pre-sin and purity.
In your discussion, I think you may be getting close to the claim of Sinless Perfection (mentioned in my NEXT blog, so I won't repeat it all here). We are imperfect creatures, both in body and mind and cannot keep the perfect law (Booth). Sinless Perfection puts us in the state of Adam and Eve before the fall, which you mention (being made good). Booth clearly argued this is not possible to attain (I'm using a reprint of Booth's booklet "Holy Living: or what TSA Teaches about Sanctification").
BTW, I most certainly understand your point about dissing and your jovial tone- I am just a bit worried about others who might read it while not knowing you and take it wrong. We're still friends (on MY side anyway)!
Doug I thin there are some serious flaws in your posting – at the risk of starting two debates (having already responded to your other blog) see my comments below…
You say “hell will be FULL of people who think they are good. Heaven will be FULL of sinners saved ONLY by grace. Where will YOU be?”
Salvation delivers much more than mere safety, it delivers righteousness. It is not my faith alone that saves me – all my faith does is establish righteousness it is my righteousness that gives me access to heaven. As the song says “He died that we might be forgiven he died to make us good that we might go at last to heaven saved by his precious blood.’
You say “That’s why we HAVE a conscience! It’s SUPPOSED to bother us when we sin!”
I agree but if I don’t sin then it won’t bother me. In addition my conscience (as a regenerated man) is utilised by the spirit – when I don’t sin it convicts me not of guilt but of righteousness!
You say “we’ve convinced ourselves we're good people and ignore our conscience. We never think we sin, so we never have to feel bad! Great trick, huh? But then we never repent and never received God’s grace. We head straight to hell all the while thinking were good people!”
I disagree. Most people I know have the opposite problem they know they are bad but think that being ‘good’ (righteous) is impossible. Holiness saves me completely even taking away the desire to sin – it can come back gradually if I rebel but as long as I leave all on the altar it need not return.
You say “Listen! If you think you’re a good person, you're fooling yourself and your conscience will never do what it’s supposed to do- show you what a wretch you are.”
I disagree. If I think that my ‘goodness’ is my own doing and not dependant on grace and faithful obedience then I am indeed a wretch. However, if my righteousness comes through faith in what Christ has done then I am good, clean, precious, joint heir with Christ etc.
You say “Oh, have I offended you? Those aren't my words, but the words of a familiar hymn: "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me."
You haven’t offended me and the song is in the past tense.
You say “We think we’re good because of a poor understanding of our salvation. Fact: All humankind is Totally Depraved.”
I have a slight problem with this one – Finney would disagree with you completely but the SA doctrines agree and so I agree (although I have a hankering after Finney’s view!) Unregenerate mankind is totally depraved and justly exposed etc but regenerated humanity is totally accepted and no longer under condemnation.
You ask and demand that we answer truthfully: “Do you gossip? That’s sin. Do you worry? That’s sin. Lie? Sin. Speed? Sin. Say mean things? Sin. Grumble and complain? Yep- sin. Get angry? Sin again. You think you’re better than others? Hate people? Sin. Are you jealous of anyone? Sin. Are you Selfish? Sin. I can go on here . . .
Dare I say that holy people do not do these things – Hallelujah for holiness! This is why we don’t experience revival because we have convinced ourselves that total deliverance is impossible. We can be completely delivered from all the sins you mention, generally we aren’t because the cost is too high. The cost being entire sanctification.
You say “Salvation Army Doctrine #5 agrees that we are totally depraved. Sin is not just murder or BIG crimes. All sin is sin. Even "little" sins. God hates it; we do it. We ALL do it. We are NOT good. You know it. If you think different, you’re ignoring your conscience.”
Don’t forget Doctrine No 10: “We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
You say “ Doing good things does NOT make us good. Scripture says we were created to do good things (works), but it also says that we are not saved by our works.”
Don’t confuse works with ‘fruit’, we are required to produce good fruit and it is this good fruit which produce the good acts which are the hallmark of Christianity. Good work doesn’t guarantee a place in heaven but proper biblical ‘good fruit’ does because it is the evidence of our conversion. Jesus tended to deal with ‘fruit’ rather than works because works can be faked whereas fruit cannot.
You say “Paul saw the truth: he realized he was not a good person, rather the worst. Without this realization, we don’t think we need God and we never repent. You know what? ONLY God’s grace can save us.”
It would help if you define ‘save us’. Does salvation mean nothing more than eternal security or does Jesus go further and save me from the desire to sin (not to be confused with temptation)?
One last point – a regenerated person who has entirely sanctified his all had that all consecrated by God, who devotes his life as a living sacrifice is actually repenting. Repentance does not mean to ask God for forgiveness but literally to turn around and walk in the opposite direction. A holy person is always actively repenting.
Finally, you say “I’m writing to people who sin regularly; religiously even, yet how often do you go to your Army altar to deal with that? You have any idea how that breaks God's heart? We hold the altar as a special place where we can repent and receive God’s grace. We’re all going to need it. It’s the only way we reach heaven. In fact, it's ONLY by Grace we can enter.”
I would say that we should stop repeatedly going to the altar. We no longer have to be in a sin/repent/sin/repent cycle because we have been saved from that. If we are willing to pay the price then we can experience the blessing of holiness and the freedom it brings.
Love and prayers Andrew
its really disconcerting the way others are dissecting things here. . it just doesn't feel right.
Kathryn
Earlier on in this debate you said...
"i know i'm no good. . i can't stay good for 1 hour. I know i'm not cut out for 'good' and i know this is why i need God's forgiveness, Jesus' blood and mercy and love. Still, every day is a challenge, every hour, every minute. I have no altar to go to but the altar in my heart. . God meets me there."
That is why it feels disconcerting. The spirit convicts us not only of our sin but also of our (potential) righteousness.
Modern Christianity has convinced you that you cannot be good this side of death. That is a demonic lie. You can be righteous for you are 'the righteousness of Christ'.
Next time you go to the altar seek holinss as well as forgiveness.
Hope this doesn't come across as offensive - I can be a blunt sometimes - absolutely no offense intended.
Much love and prayers
Andrew
i'm not in a debate here. I just made a couple of comments on what Doug posted. I don't have a theology degree. I contribute my 2 cents. I'm not wanting to be involved in arguments.I don't comment so that people can tell me what i should do or how i should think. I post because this is Doug's blog and I'm responding to Doug's words, 'correctly' or 'incorrectly' it is what it is. I'm learning how to be in relationship with God. He's patient with me and he doesn't judge me.
Kathryn, don't take Andrew wrong. He's not being mean or offensive, just trying to give some good advise. In the past I'd probably have agreed with him- but I have not experienced the complete death of my sin nature- much as I have tried and prayed to see it happen. No matter how holy I am, it's always somewhere to be found. I am grateful God is always there as well and he provides my way out.
The part about the demonic lie sounds good when written, but it sure can come across as calling us demons! Or at least being directed by them. It was NOT his intent. I know better. He's one of the good guys and he's not out to get me either! :)
Know this: we don't have to sin. We can be holy as God requires. By staying close to Jesus, listening to his Spirit and making right choices when tempted we can live free of sin's downward spiral. We are not defeatists; we have victory through Jesus' blood!
Doug
That's one of the most gracious things I've ever read on the internet - thank you :-)
Kathryn - sorry I never meant to cause any upset - for what it's worth I don't have a degree in theology either :-)
I have been struggling with holiness for many years and have discovered that the cost is high - very high. Holiness requires me to put everything - every penny, thought, influence and minute on the altar.
I believe that I have (only very recently) agreed to pay that price and to my utter amazement I have discovered victory over sin.
So if I come across as too passionate its probably because I'm arguing with all the zeal of a new convert.
God bless you both
Much love and prayers Andrew
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